Pre-primed or self primed, that is the question! - Page 2

Garth Herrick · 02-03-2005, 08:23 PM

Dear Sharon and Michele:

For the last few years I have used Belgian oil primed linen made by Fredrix: Rix DP (111DP).

For whatever it is worth, I have no doubt at all when the label says it is lead primed that it is, because it has the distinctive smell characteristic of lead priming. Other whites and primers don't smell the same as Flake White.

Garth

Virgil Elliott · 02-03-2005, 10:54 PM

I asked Rick January, of Fredrix, whether his company still used lead priming on its lead-primed linen, and Rix specifically, and he confirmed that it was still being primed with lead.

My conservator contacts at the National Gallery have repeatedly expressed concern over the hide glue sizing of pre-primed canvases, which imposes fairly extreme changes in canvas tension as the glue expands and contracts in reaction to fluctuations in humidity. Ultimately, this can be expected to lead to cracking of the paint layer, after the paint film has stiffened with age. Some people don't care if this happens to their paintings, but I think it's important that they be aware of it, at least.

Virgil Elliott

Alicia Kornick · 02-04-2005, 02:36 PM

For what its worth, on page 55 of the latest Italian Art Store catalog they offer three styles of pre primed linen rolls.. Oil primed, acrylic primed and lead primed.
Their most popular portrait linen is AC260 and it states that it is double primed by hand.

The store is located in New Jersey, so maybe Marvin has had some experience with this.
Alicia

Virgil Elliott · 02-04-2005, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharon Knettell

Mr. Doak is indeed controversial and a high pressure salesman, but at least he was up front about the proper curing rates of lead primed canvasses. He also said another thing, which I think is true, that there is absolutely no regulation in the field of art supplies. The artist does not have a chance he said.

Sharon,

What regulation there is is in the form of ASTM standards, which are voluntary standards not enforced by law, but high standards of performance that must be met before any manufacturer can claim that its products conform to the pertinent ASTM standard. ASTM Standard D 4302 is the standard for Artists' Oil, Resin-Oil, and Alkyd Paints; D 4303 is the standard for lightfastness testing methods; D 5067 is the Standard Specification for Watercolor Paints; D 5098 is the Standard Specification for Artists' Acrylic Emulsion Paints, and D 6901 is the new colored pencil standard. We are currently drafting a standard for pastels. Some manufacturers do not care to meet ASTM standards, for reasons of their own, but most of the reputable major manufacturers do. I participate in the development of these standards as a member of the Subcommittee on Artists' Paints and Materials, representing the interests of artists.

The artist DOES have a chance of getting quality materials, by paying attention to whether the products he or she considers buying meet the ASTM standard for the product in question, where there is such a standard. And the more artists insist on that, the more manufacturers will be compelled to make sure their products come up to that level of quality. Case in point, pastels. Before we (ASTM) turned our attention to pastels, many of the pastels on the market, including some with exalted reputations, had an unacceptably high percentage of fugitive colors, i.e., colors that fade significantly. As soon as I showed the Subcommittee the results of my preliminary lightfastness tests, at least three Manufacturers began to reformulate their lines in order to improve the performance of their pastels, and there are sure to be others following suit before we are done. Until that started, pastellists did not express concern for permanence, so the companies used whatever pigments were cheapest, irrespective of whether they would fade or not. This same basic process took place with oil paints many years ago, then with watercolors, then acrylics, the end result in each case being improved quality of the products. So when enough artists demand it, the manufacturers will respond by providing it. Look for those ASTM labels.

There will undoubtedly be certain purveyors of products who will have bad things to say about ASTM if the subject comes up; most likely these will be people who have products to sell that do not meet the standards. A grain of salt is advisable in such instances.

By the way, one of the issues currently being looked into by members of the Subcommittee is the possibility of a standard for painting grounds, aka primers.

Virgil Elliott

Michele Rushworth · 02-05-2005, 01:27 AM

Did the Claessen's have rabbit hide glue?

Michele Rushworth · 02-05-2005, 04:05 PM

Thanks anyway, Sharon!

Carl Toboika · 02-06-2005, 10:31 AM

A few odds and ends to add.

Marvin, liquid lead is the one, to be most careful of health wise. It

Tony Pro · 02-08-2005, 07:15 PM

I am glad this post got started. I am still in this forever ending search for the right feeling canvas...

For a while during my days of trying to do what Schmid did, I tried doing the lead white on panel, lead white on canvas, etc. That produced nothing but slippery painting surface for me, I don't know how Richard did it... he doesn't use that anymore though. He doesn't have the time or energy to prepare his own canvas anymore. I tried the Williamsburg Lead and its too slippery for me.

So then I tried Soho's Indian Linen with white lead priming. I really liked everything about this canvas except it was a little to thin and the lead yellowed REALLY fast. I should probably try their Belgian linen and have it DP'd with lead... I wanted to see if they would tone the canvases as well.

I have been using Claessens Oil Primed forever... 66DP, 13DP 15DP you name it, I have used it. Works good but still no there yet to what I want. Plus I like to work on toned canvases so buying premade canvas was out of the question for that.

So I talked to Morgan Weistling on the phone the other day and he suggested to do what he does. He uses Acrylic primed Claessens and then tones it with regular liquitex acrylic paint. Burnt Umber and and a touch of Cobalt Blue. Produces a greenish tone and I painted on a swatch he sent me and wallah! It produced the feel I wanted for the alla prima method I use. Not sure how it will be for glazing the longer pieces I do though. Might be too absorbent.

Anyhow, I am still looking for the right canvas for all around.

The quest continues!

Tony

P.S. I have been wanting to call Mr. Doak for a while but am a little nervous.. its like calling Gandalf of the painting world.

Chris Saper · 02-08-2005, 10:26 PM

Tony et al,

I have become increasingly enamored with very smooth surfaces. I have also found the Claessen's (and a few others) are too slippery and greasy for me to deal with. Nontheless, I love the very smooth grounds they offer in terms of being able to really get tiny detail.

I now use the www.NewTraditionsartpanels.com , L-600 pretty much all the time. Out of the box, it is way too slick for me. I have (compliments of Rob Howard, www.studioproducts.com) now learned to work a first layer, be it toner or paint, in the Studio Products Underpainting medium. The medium dries almost immediately, and yields a surface that is uniformly matte, and that has a bit of tooth. It prepares a slick surface beautifully for the next coat of paint. I use it as well when I paint in oil, on Wallis paper.

Tony Pro · 02-08-2005, 11:11 PM

Chris

Have you tried working alla prima on this? Is too slick for that. I am intrigued by this seller. Have not heard of them before now and it looks like they all the good linens. Dave Davis.. which Richard (Schmid) uses... interesting.

Tony

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Saper

Tony et al,

I have become increasingly enamored with very smooth surfaces. I have also found the Claessen's (and a few others) are too slippery and greasy for me to deal with. Nontheless, I love the very smooth grounds they offer in terms of being able to really get tiny detail.

I now use the www.NewTraditionsartpanels.com , L-600 pretty much all the time. Out of the box, it is way too slick for me. I have (compliments of Rob Howard, www.studioproducts.com) now learned to work a first layer, be it toner or paint, in the Studio Products Underpainting medium. The medium dries almost immediately, and yields a surface that is uniformly matte, and that has a bit of tooth. It prepares a slick surface beautifully for the next coat of paint. I use it as well when I paint in oil, on Wallis paper.